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	Comments on: The Joy of Suffering	</title>
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	<link>https://unwinnable.com/2013/01/10/the-joy-of-suffering/</link>
	<description>Stories about Culture</description>
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		<title>
		By: Jason Rice		</title>
		<link>https://unwinnable.com/2013/01/10/the-joy-of-suffering/#comment-48245</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason Rice]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2013 02:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://unwinnable.com/?p=39608#comment-48245</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My wife used to always question why I kept playing games like Super Meat Boy or Dark Souls when all she&#039;d hear from my direction is outlandish curses. 
 
I would tell her &#034;Because when I destroy this thing, it will be wonderful.&#034; 
 
A great example of this on a smaller scale is Super Hexagon. Every death, no matter how seemingly arbitrary or rapid, is a potential learning experience, even if all you&#039;re learning is how to cope with failure. Achieving victory requires a journey through the development of skills, which is where the value in winning comes from. Beating the Hyper Hexagoner stage was one of my greatest gaming achievements of the year precisely because of the suffering I had experienced on that trek.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My wife used to always question why I kept playing games like Super Meat Boy or Dark Souls when all she&#039;d hear from my direction is outlandish curses. </p>
<p>I would tell her &quot;Because when I destroy this thing, it will be wonderful.&quot; </p>
<p>A great example of this on a smaller scale is Super Hexagon. Every death, no matter how seemingly arbitrary or rapid, is a potential learning experience, even if all you&#039;re learning is how to cope with failure. Achieving victory requires a journey through the development of skills, which is where the value in winning comes from. Beating the Hyper Hexagoner stage was one of my greatest gaming achievements of the year precisely because of the suffering I had experienced on that trek.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: @mikegbrown		</title>
		<link>https://unwinnable.com/2013/01/10/the-joy-of-suffering/#comment-47976</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[@mikegbrown]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://unwinnable.com/?p=39608#comment-47976</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://unwinnable.com/2013/01/10/the-joy-of-suffering/#comment-47939&quot;&gt;Hank Tian&lt;/a&gt;.

I really like the idea of playing in human form to induce the randomness. The only issue with that is burning resources, but I might give that a try. 
 
My point about the parrying was specifically when you have the poise to deflect an attack the risk-reward isn&#039;t quite worth it. I love the idea, and for certain character builds it might be necessary. But part of curbing your hubris is learning to not take unnecessary risks. When I can 100% block an attack and know for certain that this will create an opportunity for attack it&#039;s FAR safer. There are no time pressures, so slow and steady wins the race. Perhaps I should just take more risks because I&#039;ll simultaneously generate more opportunities for emergent moments, and break the repetition. 
 
Again, all of this should be taken with the fact that I am only 3/4 of the way through the game and I play a melee focused character. 
 
(Side note: I wish that after a successful parry (that kills) you could use the kick to knock them over. Parrying is one of the few moments in the game that you feel powerful and using that kick would be a wonderful bit of punctuation to that moment.) 
 ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://unwinnable.com/2013/01/10/the-joy-of-suffering/#comment-47939">Hank Tian</a>.</p>
<p>I really like the idea of playing in human form to induce the randomness. The only issue with that is burning resources, but I might give that a try. </p>
<p>My point about the parrying was specifically when you have the poise to deflect an attack the risk-reward isn&#039;t quite worth it. I love the idea, and for certain character builds it might be necessary. But part of curbing your hubris is learning to not take unnecessary risks. When I can 100% block an attack and know for certain that this will create an opportunity for attack it&#039;s FAR safer. There are no time pressures, so slow and steady wins the race. Perhaps I should just take more risks because I&#039;ll simultaneously generate more opportunities for emergent moments, and break the repetition. </p>
<p>Again, all of this should be taken with the fact that I am only 3/4 of the way through the game and I play a melee focused character. </p>
<p>(Side note: I wish that after a successful parry (that kills) you could use the kick to knock them over. Parrying is one of the few moments in the game that you feel powerful and using that kick would be a wonderful bit of punctuation to that moment.) </p>
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		<title>
		By: Hank Tian		</title>
		<link>https://unwinnable.com/2013/01/10/the-joy-of-suffering/#comment-47939</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hank Tian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2013 05:58:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://unwinnable.com/?p=39608#comment-47939</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://unwinnable.com/2013/01/10/the-joy-of-suffering/#comment-47876&quot;&gt;Mike Brown&lt;/a&gt;.

Parrying is pointless? Getting a free hit that does double or triple the damage, and knocks an enemy on the ground, giving you a free window of time to chug your Estus flask or cast a long spell, pointless? I&#039;ll have to disagree there. 
 
I do agree that repetition can be pretty apparent in Dark Souls because of the bonfire design, but what makes this repetition interesting (or incredibly frustrating) is that even the simplest of enemies can destroy you if you are not being careful - the dangers of hubris, as noted in the article, which is a little different from the repetition lamented about in the article. 
 
I try to play in human form whenever possible in my current runs of Dark Souls, for that degree of randomness you ask for. Getting invaded, summoning, all add that element of randomness and encounters with invading phantoms while you are already in a precarious situation can end up being quite dynamic and interesting. Combined with the risks of dying and/or losing your bloodstain, this can lead to some heart-pounding moments. 
 
I do agree that aggroing enemies and pulling them away is a little cheap, and that perhaps some patrols or otherwise changing enemy behavior might spice up the games a little. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://unwinnable.com/2013/01/10/the-joy-of-suffering/#comment-47876">Mike Brown</a>.</p>
<p>Parrying is pointless? Getting a free hit that does double or triple the damage, and knocks an enemy on the ground, giving you a free window of time to chug your Estus flask or cast a long spell, pointless? I&#039;ll have to disagree there. </p>
<p>I do agree that repetition can be pretty apparent in Dark Souls because of the bonfire design, but what makes this repetition interesting (or incredibly frustrating) is that even the simplest of enemies can destroy you if you are not being careful &#8211; the dangers of hubris, as noted in the article, which is a little different from the repetition lamented about in the article. </p>
<p>I try to play in human form whenever possible in my current runs of Dark Souls, for that degree of randomness you ask for. Getting invaded, summoning, all add that element of randomness and encounters with invading phantoms while you are already in a precarious situation can end up being quite dynamic and interesting. Combined with the risks of dying and/or losing your bloodstain, this can lead to some heart-pounding moments. </p>
<p>I do agree that aggroing enemies and pulling them away is a little cheap, and that perhaps some patrols or otherwise changing enemy behavior might spice up the games a little. </p>
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